Debate with a Hardcore Islamic follower.

Sun Set In A Murky Water

Here is an Debate with Hamza Masood, who claimed to defeat Dr. Ali Sina in a debate. Here is his performance with me:-

Brother Hamza Masood, 15th Dec 2011

As per your claim here, you said I hope you will be educated about our religion should you have any questions regarding Islam please don’t hesitate to ask”. For sure, I am going to raise several allegation on Qur’an and Muhammad. I’ll use authentic source of  Islamic scriptures as reference to my claims, both us will agree on a common topic to discuss, and we will proceed to next.  My first allegation is that Qur’an is full of pseudoscience and Muhammad was unable to prove his connection with Allah..

Let see, Qur’an 18: 86 till he reached the end of the land and thestart of an ocean,
where the Sun was setting, he noted that it was setting in a muckyspring and found
by it a people. We said: “O Zul-Qarnain! You have the option to eitherpunish them or
to show them kindness.”

Qur’an 18: 90 till he came to the rising of the Sun, he noted it rising on a
people for whom We had not provided any shelter from it (they were so backward
that they did not even know how to make houses or tents for their living).

Very clearly Allah states the setting and rising place of the sun, which is confirmed by the commentaries of Qur’an,let see Tafsir Ibn
Abbas:-

[18:86]
(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu’l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

No explanation part is left here, all knows what Allah is talking about here, according to Allah sun was going to set in a murky water
or muddy water, its an imagination of  year kid, how can you believe a god to do such a blunder.

For verse 18:90 Ibn Abbas says:-

[18:90]
(Till, when he reached the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no helper therefrom) these
people had no shelter to protect them from the sun, they had no mountains, trees or clothes. They were naked creatures who were blind to the Truth.

What left to explain? Nothing, because how can a man reach a place where sun rise, As Allah says in above verse ” They were naked
creatures who were blind to the Truth.”. I find it in Muslims case, they are actually blind to truth.. Today even a child of II std, can
confirm that from where sun rises, and where it sets. This is an absurd lie by Islamic scientist that Qur’an is a word of God, an
contains MIRACLES, rather I find pseudoscience in them.

Hamza Masood replied for this:- 20th Jan 2012

Dear Rahul,

Firstly my apologies for not responding to your email, forgive me.

May Allah swt grant me enough knowledge to be able to answer your question and that it pleases him.

Can i firstly state that by no means am i a scholar or teacher, just a muslim brother. The contradiction you state regarding Surah Al-Kahf is a very common question raised by people who wish to dissprove the Qu’ran.

Critics of this verse should be aware that the Qur’an is not descriptive prose, and the words of the Qur’an is of high poetical eloquence, something which the Bible is not able to claim. Since the beauty of the Qur’an is in its poetical nature, therefore it is only natural that the Qur’an uses emphatic expressions to describe something like a “sunset”. Keep in mind that the Qur’an is in poetical prose and is meant to be a challenge to the pagan Arabs in Mecca who prided themselves as writers of good poetry. Those neophytes who like to use this verse as a stick to beat Islam with should try to study the Arabian Literature and history of that period before coming up with incorrect conclusion.

Several translations of the Sura by Yusuf Ali, M Pickthall, Shakir can be analaysed below regarding the points you raise.

“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun…”: The translation of this part of the verse does not say that Zul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets LITERALLY, rather it means here that Zul-Qarnain was facing the direction in which the sun is setting. The “setting of the sun,” is an Arabic idiom meaning ‘the western-most point’ of his expedition. However, in general, idioms should not be literally translated.
“…he found it set in a spring of murky water”: The Qur’an is obviously describing what Dhul-Qarnain saw. What Dhul-Qarnain saw was the image of the sun setting in a dark body of water. Since the Qur’an is clearly describing this from Dhul-Qarnain’s direct point of view (the Qur’an is quite explicit here in doing that), there is in fact no problem with the description of what Dhul-Qarnain saw. Of course the Critic is right when he says that “the sun does not set in a spring of murky water”, but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun “entering” the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea.
Therefore, it is clear the verse says that Dhul-Qarnain went west and saw the sun setting over the horizon so that it looked to him as though it was setting into the sea, which is murky-looking. Probably the critic have never stood by on the beach and observe the sun set.

In his famous commentary known as Al-Game’ Le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best. 

Imam Ibn Kathir (701-774 AH/1302-1373 CE) wrote in his commentary about this verse, that:

“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun” means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars. “he found it set in a spring of murky water” means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean).

I have looked upon greater academic sources to be able to provide some clarification to the scientific confusion. Also as a simple picture the horizon i have posted is a picture we are all familiar with… notice how the at the far horizon it looks dark also black… like muddy waters. Surely you can realise this is not literal but an appearance….

May Allah forgive me if i have answered wrong and God knows best. Don’t hesitate to get in touch if i can be of any help,

Take care Rahul, and my one advice is try not to be ignorant and open your mind to the truth, don’t believe the few that try to taint or wrong the teachings of the Qu’ran, you seem  like an intelligent man, just slightly confused i feel maybe from the bad influences you may have come friendly with.

Hamza Masood

For Which I replied:- 21st Jan 2012

Brother Hamza,
I am really glad to get a reply from you, hope we have a better discussion ahead.

I agree with some of your explanation, which says :-

 Of course the Critic is right when he says that “the sun does not set in a spring of murky water”, but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun “entering” the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea. 

Really even I don’t find any problem which this part, if a man says that he saw sun setting in a sea, while he was standing in a beach. People will not consider him fool, because it is possible to see, sun setting in Horizon.. But it can’t appear that sun is setting in murky water. Let’s use the verse transliteration for the evidence.

It says:-

Transliteration
Hatta itha balaghamaghriba ashshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atinwawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya thaalqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma antattakhitha feehim husna.

Now, analyse few words in this transliteration. The first one is the word  ‘wajadaha’, which according to Muslim scholars means “appeared to” or “he found it”.

To know the real meaning of this word, please go through this page here. So according to lane’s lexicon dictionary, WAJADAHA means:- He found it; lighted on it; attained it; obtained it by searching or seeking; discovered it; perceived it; saw it; experienced it, or became sensible of it;

The same word WAJADAHA is used in several other verses of Qur’an, for ex see 7:28, here is the transliteration with English translation.:-

Transliteration
Wa-itha faAAaloo fahishatan qaloowajadna AAalayha abaana wallahuamarana biha qul inna Allaha laya/muru bilfahsha-i ataqooloona AAalaAllahi ma la taAAlamoon
Sahih International

And when they commit an immorality, they say, “We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it.” Say, “Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?”

Yusuf Ali

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: “We found our fathers doing so”; and “Allah commanded us thus”: Say: “Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?”

Here the word is used as :- We found. Further the Lane’s Lexicon gives the clear meaning of this word, see here.
[He found, in the sense of] he knew [by experience]. (A, TA, &c.) [In this sense, it is a verb of the kind called أفْعَالُ القُلُوبِ ; having two objective complements; the first of which is called its noun, and the second its predicate.] Ex. وَجَدْتُ زَيْدًا ذَا الحِفَاظِ I [found, or] knew Zeyd to possess the quality of defending those things which should be sacred, or inviolable.

Now, it is not hard to decide what does really this word mean, Dhul-Qurnayen actually came to the real place where the sun set. Now let us also see the word , which according to you and many more Islamic scholars means :- Sea, or Ocean. Because sun cannot appear to set in pond, or lake or spring, because we need a larger body of water to extend it till horizon, which cannot be anything except Sea or Ocean, not even rivers..

So, again I refer you to the transliteration, which uses word  AAaynin for Sea or Ocean. Now, there are plenty of verses from Qur’an itself to refer to the actual meaning of this word. Please see, 2:60, which reads:-

Transliteration
Wa-ithi istasqa moosaliqawmihi faqulna idrib biAAasaka alhajarafanfajarat minhu ithnata AAashrataAAaynan qadAAalima kullu onasin mashrabahum kuloo washraboomin rizqi Allahi wala taAAthaw fee al-ardimufsideen
Sahih International
And [recall] when Moses prayed for water for his people, so We said, “Strike with your staff the stone.” And there gushed forth from it twelve springs, and every people knew its watering place. “Eat and drink from the provision of Allah , and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption.”
Also see 15:45

Transliteration
Inna almuttaqeena fee jannatinwaAAuyoon
Sahih International

Indeed, the righteous will be within gardens and springs.

So in the same way, no where Qur’an says Aaaynin refers to Sea or Ocean. It simply means spring, or pond, so there is no question of horizon and appeared place of setting.. These verse mean, that in reality Dhul-Qurnayen saw the sun setting in murky water.. Even one more point which should be noted by you, that almost all the Islamic Translators, translated this word as ‘Murky water’ or ‘Muddy water’.

We don’t find mud in sea or ocean, it is obviously available in springs and dirty ponds..  Lastly, I will like to quote your comment which says:-

In his famous commentary known as Al-Game’ Le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:

It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best.

Brother Hamza, I used the earliest Tafsir by the companion of the prophet, as the Tafsir itself says “However, Muslim scholarship considers Ibn ‘Abbas as the real father of the science of Tafsir.” ‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas (d. 68/687), which makes it the earliest Tafsir.. 

Regards..

Hamza Masood replied:- 21st Jan 2012

Hello Rahul,

You seem to contradict yourself in your explanantion and instead of providing a valid argument or proof….. i will requote one of the translations:-

it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water

Firstly understand that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to reach the point at which the sun is setting… come on my friend think logic….. no man can stand at this point…. the Qu-ran is a book of logic, look throughout it with its repspect to scientific facts /issues… how can it be that it is always this surah that non believers pick on to dissprove…. ??

What you are doing and are obviously quite good at doing is take odd words and picking out the possible meanings of that word that suit your argument on the context it is used in and then trying to dissprove the qu’ran.

My friend in ANY scriptures/prose/text/book/piece of written knowledge do you not know you can’t single out a word and expect it to sum up what the whole text means…??? You say yourself wajadaha also means perceives or appears… these are your own words and means NOTliterally. I guess you knowledge of grammar of the english language is very limited…..and like me you are not capable of speaking quranic arabic….. this makes very difficult as you can imagine but we still try to get you  to come to an understanding of why your argument on this surah is flawed.

The term ‘he found’ can mean different things… surely you understand this…. he found DOES NOT always mean literally he physically found something …..

Please open you eyes and mind …. if the qu’ran is flawed as you say i challenge you to bring other sources where it is contradictory or claimed by people like yoursleves that it not the truth.

Hamza 

My reply:- Date 23rd Jan 2012

Brother Hamza,

Its not me who contradicts his statement, but the commentary which you quoted in your last reply was posted by you only, see it here :-

In his famous commentary known as Al-Game’ Le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:

It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best. 

This commentary was posted by you only in your first message, and I just used it to prove my point, and to discard this commentary I have already replied you, please read it again. I said earlier that :-

Brother Hamza, I used the earliest Tafsir by the companion of the prophet, as the Tafsir itself says “However, Muslim scholarship considers Ibn ‘Abbas as the real father of the science of Tafsir.” ‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas (d. 68/687), which makes it the earliest Tafsir.. 

Now, I hope your misconception must have been cleared. Further you said that I am not providing you valid point, but I think you haven’t read my reply seriously, please go through it again. You claimed :-

Firstly understand that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to reach the point at which the sun is setting… come on my friend think logic….. no man can stand at this point…. the Qu-ran is a book of logic, look throughout it with its repspect to scientific facts /issues… how can it be that it is always this surah that non believers pick on to dissprove…. ??

This is what I am saying,that it is physically impossible to reach the setting place of sun, until unless a man thinks that this earth is flat and considers sun a small football. As in case of Qur’an, Muhammad narrated the story to his companions, which Allah mentioned him. This mean Allah approved the story, by the same logic that Qur’an is the word of God, and God’s knowledge can not have error. This mean that Allah approved the story and mentioned it in Qur’an, which Muhammad narrated in CH18 Verse 86.  

Rest of your comment is not worthy of a reply, because it makes no sense, and is a very poor argument, but still to clarify this matter I’ll explain it to you. As you said:-

What you are doing and are obviously quite good at doing is take odd words and picking out the possible meanings of that word that suit your argument on the context it is used in and then trying to dissprove the qu’ran.

What made you think this, I though that being a Muslim, you must be knowing that Koranic Arabic is not what Arab’s of today usually speak, so to make it easily understandable, Islamic scholars gave meanings to each and every word in Qur’an..  Like we find, Encyclopedia of Qur’an, Alphabetical Index of Qur’an, or Qur’an Dictionary etc which are approved by Al-Azhar university of Cairo, Egypt.. The Page which contains those meanings which suit my argument is from an Islamic Website, you can visit it here. It is not at all my definition, the dictionary contains all those Lexicon words, which were used at the time of Muhammad, with its meaning. It is not my own invention. The words I provided you were, WAJADAHA, which can possibly mean this:-

[He found, in the sense of] he knew [by experience]. (A, TA, &c.) [In this sense, it is a verb of the kind called أفْعَالُ القُلُوبِ ; having two objective complements; the first of which is called its noun, and the second its predicate.] Ex. وَجَدْتُ زَيْدًا ذَا الحِفَاظِ I [found, or] knew Zeyd to possess the quality of defending those things which should be sacred, or inviolable.


And, AAayanin, which according to Qur’an itself means Spring. As we can see its example in 2:60, 15:45 etc. So it won’t be just to accuse me of anything, which I am not doing.

Now, moving ahead let’s see what else you have said:-


My friend in ANY scriptures/prose/text/book/piece of written knowledge do you not know you can’t single out a word and expect it to sum up what the whole text means…??? You say yourself wajadaha also means perceives or appears… these are your own words and means NOTliterally. I guess you knowledge of grammar of the english language is very limited…..and like me you are not capable of speaking quranic arabic….. this makes very difficult as you can imagine but we still try to get you  to come to an understanding of why your argument on this surah is flawed.
The term ‘he found’ can mean different things… surely you understand this…. he found DOES NOT always mean literally he physically found something …..

Brother, very first thing you should be aware of, that Qur’an itself rejects your definition of word WAJADAHA, and on whose authority you are making such meaning yourself. You only said, that you are not an scholar, it is baseless claim to say that WAJADAHA means ‘perceive’. According to other verses from Qur’an, WAJADAHA means, that Dhul-Qurnayen found the place literally. As I have given examples of those  verses in my 2nd Reply .  Let me give you another example, which will prove that the word WAJADAHA does not means ‘perceive’ any how.

See Ch6 Verse78 which says:-

And when he saw the sun rising, he said, “This is my lord; this is greater.” But when it set, he said, “O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah .

Also read the transliteration here:-

Falamma raa ashshamsabazighatan qala hatha rabbee hathaakbaru falamma afalat qala ya qawmi inneebaree-on mimma tushrikoon 

Now, as you said WAJADAHA means perceive, then please find the word WAJADAHA in above transliteration. I don’t think so you will get it. But see the verse 18:77 here with its Transliteration, which says:-

So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidh r restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.” 

Transliteration:-

Fantalaqa hattaitha ataya ahla qaryatin istatAAamaahlaha faabaw an yudayyifoohuma fawajadafeeha jidaran yureedu an yanqadda faaqamahuqala law shi/ta lattakhathta AAalayhi ajra 

Now notice the word above in BOLD, it means that the people mentioned in above verse 18:77, literally found the wall which was about to collapse, and just after 10 verse, Allah changed the meaning of the word. Is it so? Also see the meaning of the word ‘perceive’ below, and put its meaning in the verse 18:86. It does not make any sense brother.

become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand:his mouth fell open as he perceived the truth[with clause]:he was quick to perceive that there was little future in such arguments

Now, I think I have answered each and every question of your’s and have given a strong refutation to your understanding using the meanings from Qur’an itself. It is a clear scientific error in Qur’an, making Qur’an a man made book, and Muhammad a False prophet. When you remove this blind faith from your eyes and brain, you will find thousand errors more in it..

Regards..
After this part of my reply on Jan 23rd 2012, I haven’t got any reply from his side, hope I hear from him soon.

——————————————————————————————————————————————————————–

This debate started with this picture below, and consumed several hours. Let’s review it to understand Islam more deeply.
Rahul Raj

An Islamic Radical named Abdul Hannan Qureshi , who claims to be an undisputed winner in defending Islam, and also says “why would i visit a anti Islamic site ?  I debunk liars like such daily”. Well its good, if you debunk them daily. But as for now let’s see our discussion on Chapter 18 verse 86 of Qur’an.. Does Sun sets In a Murky Water?.

For an introduction of this verse I wrote:-

Brother AbdulHannan Qureshi, thanks for ur reply, I was dying to hear it from u, whatever u said above.. So let me hear it from you, how to prove authenticity of Hadith? Don’t hide urself behind a curtain named authenticity of HADITH.. Come and refute my claims bro.. meanwhile also see my post exposing ISLAMIC SCIENCE, with all authentic used verses, and chain of transmitters in case of Hadith, see here:-

Can read this comments as my article here.
PSEUDOSCIENCE OF ALLAH

AbdulHannan Qureshi :-

Regarding Murky water  Quran says It Appeared to Dhul qarnain….. APPEARED.

Further he continues to paste some claims from sites like of Zakir Naik.

AbdulHannan Qureshi I. ASTRONOMY
———————-

CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE: ‘THE BIG BANG’
The creation of the universe is explained by astrophysicists in a widely accepted phenomenon, popularly known as the ‘Big Bang’. It is supported byobservational and experimental data gathered by astronomers andastrophysicists for decades. According to the ‘Big Bang’, the whole universewas initially one big mass (Primary Nebula). Then there was a ‘Big Bang’(Secondary Separation) which resulted in the formation of Galaxies. Thesethen divided to form stars, planets, the sun, the moon, etc. The origin of theuniverse was unique and the probability of it occurring by ‘chance’ is zero.The Qur’aan contains the following verse, regarding the origin of the universe:
“Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth
Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them
asunder?” [Al-Qur’aan 21:30]
The striking congruence between the Qur’aanic verse and the ‘Big Bang’ isinescapable! How could a book, which first appeared in the deserts of Arabia1400 years ago, contain this profound scientific truth? THERE WAS AN INITIAL GASEOUS MASS BEFORE THE CREATION OF GALAXIES, Scientists say that before the galaxies in the universe were formed, celestialmatter was initially in the form of gaseous matter. In short, huge gaseousmatter or clouds were present before the formation of the galaxies. Todescribe initial celestial matter, the word ‘smoke’ is more appropriate than gas. The following Qur’aanic verse refers to this state of the universe by theword dhukhan which means smoke.
“Moreover, He Comprehended In His design the sky, And it had been
(as) smoke: He said to it And to the earth: 

‘Come ye together, Willingly
or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We do come (Together), in willing
obedience.’” [Al-Qur’aan 41:11]
Again, this fact is a corollary to the ‘Big Bang’ and was not known to the Arabs during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). What then, could have been the source of this knowledge?
AbdulHannan Qureshi THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH
———————————————–
In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when hesailed around it in 1597. Consider the following Qur’aanic verse regarding the alternation of day and night: 
“Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]
Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.
The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth: 
“He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions): He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan39:5]
The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– theway a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the dayand night can only take place if the earth is spherical. The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattenedat the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:
“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” 2 [Al-Qur’aan79:30]
The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. Theshape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thusthe Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.
For which I replied :-
Brother AbdulHannan Qureshi, you are a pathetic Liar, I got ur source of Information.. It is for sure Zakir Naik’s site.. No where in this verse the word ‘APPEARED’ is available. As you said it appeared to Alexender, I’ll show u some most authentic translation of Qur’an from a Islamic site..
SEE it:- Muhsin Khan
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): “O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness.”
Pickthall
Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu’l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
Yusuf Ali
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: “O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.”

Shakir
Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Dr. Ghali
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, (The western part of the then known world) he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found a people at it. We said, “O Thulqarnayn, either you will torment (them) or you will take to yourself towards them a fair (way).”All authentic translation doesn’t find the word “APPEARED”, here is the actual arabic verse from Qur’an, let see what it says:-حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوْمًا ۗ قُلْنَا يَا ذَا الْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّا أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّا أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْنًا

Visit any online language translator, and see what the outcome will be – one is here.

Google Translator translates it as this :-
Until when he reaches setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people then we said, O a centuries either to be tortured and either to take among them good.
My friend then goes to claim this :-
AbdulHannan Qureshi Read commentry of the verses kid. he found it. Dhul Qarnain found it as if its setting in Murky water. 
Quran doesn’t say Sun sets in Murky water. 
For which I replied :-
Rahul Raj ‎:- AbdulHannan Qureshi, what is the Arabic word for ‘appeared’. I gave you arabic verse, see it for urself, there is nowhere word ‘APPEARED’. Even if I accept this word in it, why then Qur’an verse 18:85 says :-Muhsin Khan
So he followed a way.Pickthall
And he followed a road

Yusuf Ali
One (such) way he followed,

Shakir
So he followed a course.

Dr. Ghali
So he followed up (another) means.

Alexender followed a way to reach the (APPEARED) setting place of sun, is it so.. Never, because Sun can only appear to set in Sea, not in MUDDY water.. But Qur’an clearly says, the place where sun set was ” he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water”.

This is Islamic Hoax, and a pathetic Brain washed Mind of a follower of Zakir Naik..

Which commentary are you talking about, see this commentary by the companion of Muhammad, it is by Ibn Abbas(Abd Allah b. ‘Abbas b. ‘Abd al-Muttalib (d. 68/687), cousin of the Prophet and father of the discipline of Quranic exegesis), he explains this verse.

[18:86]
(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu’l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

You lose now, there is no such word in this explanation.. In fact it also proves violence as it says:- “We said: O Dhu’l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.”

This is what Qur’an teaches to their brain dead followers..

Regards..

My friend abruptly ends discussion by saying:-
AbdulHannan Qureshi:- whatever pleases you.  you want to believe something neither which Quran says or Muslims says 🙂

Rahul Raj :-

Now, AbdulHannan Qureshi, coming to ur Big Bang claim, first see what Big Bang is :- The theory of the Big Bang stipulates that about 13.7 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the universe. Prior to that event all of the energy that was later transformed into matter was contained at one infinitely small point (not nebula). This explosion, not only gave birth to the particles that gave birth to the matter, but also to space and time. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe. Therefore the notion of “separating the heaven and the earth” is meaningless.

Even if I consider your verse, refers to BIG bang, which is not in case.

21:30, ‘The heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder’

You’ll notice verse 41.11 contradicting verse 21:30, as the verse 41:11 says:-

“Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come (together), in willing obedience.”

So which story is the right tale of the creation? Were the heaven and the earth joined together and Allah clove them asunder or were they apart and Allah told them to come together?

None of above story is correct, it is Muslim childish brain, which make them Interpret Qur’an as if it contains scientific facts.. So your all these copy paste goes waste, and I suggest you not to do such hard labor ‘OLD MAN’…

Regards.

After this I got no reply from his side. The original comments can be read from here. But its my responsibility to leave no room for doubts about above claims made by Brother Abdul Hannan, so I’ll post it here.

He earlier also claimed “THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH” is mentioned in Qur’an [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]. Lets read the actual translation of this verse, and see what it says:-

Sahih International

Do you not see that Allah causes the night to enter the day and causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term, and that Allah , with whatever you do, is Acquainted?

For which Ibn Abbas comments :-

[31:29]
(Hast thou not seen) have you not been informed in the Qur’an (how Allah causeth the night to pass into the
day) He makes the night longer than the day such that, for example, the night is 15 hours while the day is
only nine hours (and causeth the day to pass into the night) He makes the day longer than the night such
that, for example, the day consists of 15 hours while the night only of nine hours, (and hath subdued) made
subservient (the sun and the moon, each running unto an appointed term) to an appointed time in well
know trajectories; (and that Allah is Informed of what ye do) of good or evil?

There is no description, as my friend Interprets. Ancient Arabs and people at the time of Muhammad thought that the movement of Sun and Moon caused Day and Night, as demonstrated in Qur’an Chapter 18 verse 86, the same goes with this verse. No where Allah clearly said earth is sphere or egg shaped. Allah said it clear in above verse that he make Sun and Moon move for particular term for causing Day and Night. But, the fact is the rotation of Earth, causes Day and Night, and it is not based on Movement of Sun and Moon. As it is shown in this picture below.

Rahul Raj
Further my friend said the same:-
 “He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions): He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan39:5]
The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– theway a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the dayand night can only take place if the earth is spherical. The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattenedat the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:
 The above explanation of verse 31:29 is applicable here too. The last claim is a blatant lie, there nothing as such my friend claim for Verse 79:30. His claim is below, let’s have a look:-
And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” 2 [Al-Qur’aan79:30]
The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. Theshape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thusthe Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.
The English translation of this verse is not even some what similar, but completely opposite to what it says, read it here from an authentic Islamic website for online Qur’an:-

Sahih International
And after that He spread the earth.
Muhsin Khan
And after that He spread the earth;
Pickthall
And after that He spread the earth,
Yusuf Ali
And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Shakir
And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Dr. Ghali

And the earth, after that He flattened it (for life).

 Rahul Raj
No other Islamic scholar translated the verse as Zakir Naik and my friend did, not even the online Translators translated the way these true Muslims did. Here is the Arabic verse:- وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ دَحَاهَا
Every Scholar translated the word ‘Dahaha’ as Flattened, or wide spread, except Dr. NAIK.

6 thoughts on “Debate with a Hardcore Islamic follower.

  1. It is very easy for muslims idiot scholars and muslims to show Quran and Modern Science is parallel. When any scientific fact matches with what Quran says, they show it as a miracle, but it does not, they easily say science has not yet progressed so much that it could refute Quran, the words of Allah, because sometime science itself take u turn. This is the acme of Misdemeanour!

  2. There are many idiots, liers Islamic so-called scholars, Zakir Naik is one of them. Zakir is most filthiest creature on this earth. I know this for sure. I myself (an proud ex-muslim) have checked everything. His books are full of lies and forged interpretations. Please Muslims, for God sake, verify everything before you believe anything blindly. Islam is a muck. There is no miracle in quran but it is most stupid book of the history. Inspiration from reading quran depends on the reader’s ignorance. It is complete bullshit, it is satan’s handiwork. I have never read worse book than Quran. In every page there is some scientific, intellectual, logical, humanitarian, satanic mistakes present. Please read once with an unbiased mind. I guarantee you will find it so.

  3. BigKids 8:23–Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism, affirms our responsibility to lead ethical lives of value to self and humanity because we want to, that doesnt sound too difficult right? 🙂

    FourHorsemen 8:5–Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it–Christopher Hitchens 🙂

    FourHorsemen 8:21–Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake–Christopher Hitchens, God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything 🙂

    DevientGenie 8:22–Believers in a god do good for the sake of getting a reward and avoiding punishment after death, non believers in Bronze Aged fiction, do good becasue theyre nice 🙂

    WAKEUP 2:1–Science will continue to expose religions, ridiculous, childish beliefs are in fact, impeding on the progress of our conciousness by clinging to outdated ideals. We let go of stoning and burning at the stake, lets not worry if two girls kissing each other want to get married, lets get back to this Higgs Boson 🙂

    DUH 8:38–Nothing like our good ol’ pal Genesis, the guy that got the book kicked off, is at his old tricks again, awwww shucks-eee darn……Genesis 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9 But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to see his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10 What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also”….created gravity and all the stars and galazxies and is concerned with male ejaculate….the word of God? Really? All of it? Just the parts that are nice? Just the parts that youre taught?:)

    PETTY 6:2–When Christ was asked if it was lawful for a man to put away his wife “for every cause,” He replied that a man “shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh . . . What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” (Matt. 19:3-6). And the Apostle Paul wrote: “But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if she depart, that she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife.” (1 Cor. 7:10-11). In Matthew 19:9 Christ does not permit divorce in cases of fornication. He permits separation. This is clear from the fact that those who separated were cautioned not to remarry. Read Mark 10-12 and Luke 16:18.

    GoogleIt 9:32–Followers of beliefs that strongly prohibit suicide, like Christianity and Islam, have a higher suicide rate than those religions which have no strong prohibition, like Buddhism and Hinduism 🙂

    HumanError 3:46–The label “atheist” has taken on meanings that are so weak on so many levels, its ridiculous bigotry driven by ignorant arrogance that is ultimitley inspired by belief that the reason for gravity, the sub atomic world of physics, genetics, biology, and all the stars and galaxies, has an anger problem and is concerned with your sex life 🙂

    PROOF 21:8–Evolution of the body may be gradual, but of the mind its up to US. Evidence of our conciousness evolving is any advancement mankind has made, like Genetic engineering as one example. Methods have been developed to purify DNA from organisms, such as phenol-chloroform extraction, and to manipulate it in the laboratory, such as restriction digests and the polymerase chain reaction. Modern biology and biochemistry make intensive use of these techniques in recombinant DNA technology. Recombinant DNA is a man-made DNA sequence that has been assembled from other DNA sequences. They can be transformed into organisms in the form of plasmids or in the appropriate format, by using a viral vector. The genetically modified organisms produced can be used to produce products such as recombinant proteins, used in medical research, or be grown in agriculture. The reason for all that and the reason for everything, is concerned with where you go and what you do, what you eat, who you lay in bes with, and what days you hold holy in its honor, sounds just a tad delusional 🙂

    DevientGenie 8:21–Of all the poisons and venoms and chemicals known to man, none can compare to the lasting effects of the infectious religious poison hammered home into all societies for centuries 🙂

    WAKEUP 5:7–There are those who should not be allowed to think until they practice more at it, examples are those who have deep ridiculous religious beliefs. A man armed with logic and reason leads a better country than a man armed with the supernatural 🙂

    DUH 8:12–God is such a superabundance of love that he wanted to share his love with others, so he chose to create the visible world. All of creation reflects imperfectly the infinite perfections of God. But man in particular, God chose to give a special participation in his being, a special likeness to himself 🙂

    THOUGHTS 13:9–So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (Gen 1:27) As an individual, man is like God in the rationality of his soul, including his will and his intelligence. God also inscribed on man’s heart a participation in his divine Wisdom, known as the natural law, so that he would have a knowledge of the proper ordering of all creation, including himself, to its ultimate End. Communally man bears the image of God in his ability to love another– not only the love of the male for the female and of the female for the male, but also to love others in general. Perhaps the greatest of all of God’s gifts to man was a share of his own divine life so that man would have the ability to do what only God is capable of doing: loving God with the infinite love of God”……the belief that the most devout religious figure has in god, the Genie has in science. One has evidence, the other has outlandish claims that without IT, we wouldnt know love. Would you stop loving if you didnt have a god in your life? 🙂

    WAKEUP 2:2–Cornell University is a very respectable institution. The American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the National Academy of Sciences, and dozens of other scientific organizations, ALL AGREE with this…http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/neurobio/websterlab/10%20Misunderstandings%20-%20SHORT.pdf 🙂

    RELAX 5:6–So just because science cant prove something, we should automatically say that god did it? Based on what empirical evidence, based on proven facts? Science has proven evolution and natural selection as true as rotation of the earth. The only question is “how” it happened, we know it happened, we just dont know how. The only definition we have of god is in religious books written by men. These books are full of vile and disgusting habits, beliefs, sacrifices, slavery, etc etc. Why does something so beautiful as evolution have to be created by something so petty and unjust? Even if you can get yourself to the point of a creator, you take another huge leap and say the reason for everything sacrificed a son for our sin caused by the eating of an apple 🙂

    BigKids 7:9–The belief of an everlasting life in heavan is so insatiably sought, that religions have feasted on filling voids in hope, faith, and love, all precious emotions in humans, to further either a fraud or mistake. The incredible irony is, the very enemy religion labels science, is much more elegant, beautiful, inspirational, and hopeful, and it gives us faith that with a closer love with the universe, we create a closer love among ourslves 🙂

  4. unuverse is not expanding galaxies are present every where , it is wrong to say universe rather multiverse bcoz scientists have proved there are countless universes everywhere in the space .

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s